Playmaker Forum

PlayMaker Updates & Downloads => Pre-release Discussion => Topic started by: mekjal on February 20, 2019, 10:29:29 AM

Title: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: mekjal on February 20, 2019, 10:29:29 AM
Is there any information on PM 2.0?  Potential release...roadmap...features...?

Would love to hear what's next for Playmaker :)
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: djaydino on February 20, 2019, 08:04:14 PM
Hi.

Here is a link to the Roadmap (https://hutonggames.fogbugz.com/default.asp?W115) :)
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: Alex Chouls on February 21, 2019, 01:33:58 PM
The roadmap for 2.0 is kind of sparse right now. I hope to post more details soon, and hopefully, some screenshots :)
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: vamky on March 03, 2019, 04:17:05 AM
That‘s wonderful news!
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: markmandarin on April 17, 2019, 03:56:54 PM
I can't wait to buy/try/test/debug/work/enjoy <3

Team, just keep the block's flat graphic design, please.  :P

Love You!
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: escpodgames on April 18, 2019, 04:53:27 AM
I can't wait to see the Graph View grouping / New Graph View nodes (groups, colors, comments, controls...)

... assuming that is all going to make it in.
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: miguelfanclub on May 03, 2019, 01:17:51 PM
BEEP

(no pressure)

 :D
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: miguelfanclub on July 15, 2019, 07:26:46 AM
Any news on this?
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: LordHorusNL on July 15, 2019, 01:00:03 PM
Any news on this?

At this point we can only assume PM2 comes out around the same time as Half-Life 3 ;D
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: jeanfabre on July 16, 2019, 01:04:49 AM
Hi,

 Yes, don't hold your breath on this please :) 2.0 is still a wip with lots of brainstorming on how to carry out what works, how to improve the flaws, provide new features, finding out the trends and how to mix it succesfully with what makes PlayMaker so great.

Bye,

 Jean
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: miguelfanclub on July 16, 2019, 04:09:16 AM
Sounds good Jean, as long you guys dont stop it.
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: jeanfabre on July 17, 2019, 04:42:31 AM
Hi,

 Don't worry, we are here to stay. We are actually amongst the veterans of the AssetStore, Litteraly the 368th asset being published since the birth of the Asset Store... Now there are more than 145624 assets...

So PlayMaker 2.0 is totally lurking round the corner.

Bye,

 Jean
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: hoyoyo80 on July 25, 2019, 07:05:45 AM
I could use the grouping of actions inside a state just to get more organize.

Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: nightcorelv on August 08, 2019, 06:26:59 PM
well, i would like to see some feature similar to this
(https://i.imgur.com/ikX215t.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/2Ira5eA.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/SMIcTca.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/cuuIS5V.gif)

ps:all picture from FlowCanvas(another visual script asset), so this means it also possible for Playmaker to make it works right?
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: tcmeric on August 08, 2019, 06:55:27 PM
Hi, I dont think it will be like this, as flow canvas is not a FSM machine and works quite differently than playmaker. However, the first picture you showed I think it about groupings, which has been highly requested for Playmaker 2.
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: djaydino on August 09, 2019, 06:01:32 AM
Hi.
Actually you can 'kind of' do this already with 'run fsm'

Maybe its an idea to make it possible to select a group of actions and have an option to create a template from it that automatically set up inputs/outputs/events.
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: Broken Stylus on August 18, 2019, 03:22:30 PM
Any news on this?

At this point we can only assume PM2 comes out around the same time as Half-Life 3 ;D

I wouldn't be too impatient about this. PM2 really ought to be "something" imho, much more than a mere update.
That's the kind of release that could provide a really fresh face to the tool: more modern and dynamic UI, content-changing actions depending on preselected options (they added a functionality tilting towards this in 1.9 with a new UI Attribute but it would require a big overhaul on many actions), extra buttons and floating/collapsing windows/tabs within the graph view,more tools and a better visibility on the management and tracking of events and vars, massively improved Globals, expanded official action packs (some have become classics by now), etc.
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: PlaymakerNOOB on August 27, 2019, 08:46:11 AM
Quote
I wouldn't be too impatient about this. PM2 really ought to be "something" imho, much more than a mere update.
That's the kind of release that could provide a really fresh face to the tool: more modern and dynamic UI, content-changing actions depending on preselected options (they added a functionality tilting towards this in 1.9 with a new UI Attribute but it would require a big overhaul on many actions), extra buttons and floating/collapsing windows/tabs within the graph view,more tools and a better visibility on the management and tracking of events and vars, massively improved Globals, expanded official action packs (some have become classics by now), etc.

With built in visual scripting in unity arriving next year, it would make sense that Playmaker would need to do at least what the built in scripting does but better.  They need to be better in every regard to stay relevant.  I mean, why would new users choose a paid asset, when the built in one is free, more efficient, has all the 'actions' built in, etc
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: tcmeric on August 27, 2019, 10:25:12 AM
Unitys new visual scripting solution is for ECS, not c#. As well, it is not a state machine. So those are some pretty huge differences. Lastly, if you check out where it is at now (beta is out), its a long ways off from something like Playmaker, Bolt or other assets on the store.
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: Broken Stylus on August 28, 2019, 02:59:18 AM
I find it interesting that the image on the asset store features rectangles with rounded corners but the states have pointy ones in Graph view.
It's essentially Metro vs iOS, the former being the style used in PM, the latter being featured in the asset store's picture.
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: Broken Stylus on September 01, 2019, 12:52:49 PM
Unitys new visual scripting solution is for ECS, not c#. As well, it is not a state machine. So those are some pretty huge differences. Lastly, if you check out where it is at now (beta is out), its a long ways off from something like Playmaker, Bolt or other assets on the store.

https://forum.unity.com/threads/unity3d-getting-visual-scripting-in-2019-2.577084/
Unity was initially planning to push hard for ECS, but they put it on a back seat for now. In a distant future I can even see them switching from C# to their DOTS (in-house ECS) once and for all. C# will be legacy stuff.
The moment they'll reach a situation where both their C# and DOTS are equally efficient, you know this will last only a few years before they make ECS their main coding backbone.
There's probably up to two years tops for them to finely tune DOTS before a proper stable release, and maybe four to six years for DOTS to reach some kind of technical parity with C# after said release.
The 'Big Switch' might happen in a decade or so, or maybe two years earlier, but not before.
If Unity pushes for DOTS, it's just a question of time before devs feel "forced" to move on.
Then the C#-based VS tools could start to become irrelevant, but that will take several more years because of all the workers who have accrued experience on C# and will have a hard time changing their habits. Only promises of greater performances will eventually force people to jump.
But nobody will create an ECS VS tool within Unity since it will already be available. Only new nodes and functions will be sold in the store, under VS.
Best case scenario? They drop ECS altogether. Okay lol not gonna happen.
Realistic best case scenario for third party Unity VS tools? I'd say a large decade of profits before being shadowed.
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: PlaymakerNOOB on September 01, 2019, 01:05:56 PM
That is a surprisingly fair and detailed response.  I'd say your scenario seems extremely likely for Visual Scripting tools.
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: tcmeric on September 01, 2019, 05:40:34 PM
Switching from C# to DOTs only, would mean .. well.. the end over everything in the asset store that is not a shader or model just about. The asset store is clearly a large source of income. It will be a long transition.
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: Broken Stylus on September 02, 2019, 01:34:06 AM
That is, if their homemade ECS variant (like C# Unity was their variant of C#) proves to be that much of a gain, but it really looks like a paradigm breaker.
Although the change will be gradual and progressive, obviously the people remaining on the "old" tools will dwindle in numbers, but the real question is if this will only be a reduction towards a more focused niche or a pure and simple extinction.
I'm not sure if I will want to bother learning a new set of tools in 15 years from now. A super solid and matured Playmaker (or else, like Bolt) will be equally nice.
Third party VS tools might as well try to furnish their own sets of ECS-compliant nodes/actions and a lot of the support will come from their respective users. But I suspect many coders will flock to Mother Unity and pamper her with new scripts to enhance her own VS tool.

Now Unity has something that plays against itself; its business model. They largely provide a core system but you need to buy tons of options to make it palatable for proper devlopment. Which means a tool acting as a superior layer and providing more functions than the vanilla system will certainly have an edge, especially if done early, that little extra something to sell.
This is where tools like Playmaker, Bolt, FlowCanvas, etc., can find a solution to their survival, but they really need to provide that extra thing that Unity will likely not provide, and think of it now and quickly.
Like, for example, providing greater cross compability with more external tools/libs, but that's a hard thing to do and requires money. Usually it's the devs of these assets who chose to build those bridges back towards VS tools. Or perhaps an easier output of WYSIWYG semi-interactive videos for test and other statistic-related outputs. Just throwing ideas here, but I think it's fair to say that the threat is pretty real.
If the VS tools we have now get closer to perfection and find something to leverage right now, they can become essentials and maybe secure themselves alongside Unity. That's all the best we can wish them, right?

Playmaker was built as a FSM system, but creating new actions requires coding.
What if they actually provided a node-based Action Creator?
Bolt is moving in a way as to allow the creation of metanodes that literally act as states. In other words, soon enough Bolt will have a large catalogue of metanodes (implied states) to download from. Playmaker already has this catalogue but no way to create actions in Visual Scripting.

Then, only robust parallelal "co-engines" (sort of) such as Playmaker, uNode, FlowCanvas or Bolt will survive if they have a massive community, are powerful and up to the task, with also a massive selling point that Unity could not hope to obtain. Bolt (Ludiq's) are very organized and aggressive in their business plan and communication (https://ludiq.io/bolt/compare). You just need to take a look at their website or their tool's interface, it smells dedication, money and modernity. Yet not even that guarantees that they'll survive in 10 years from now.
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: djaydino on September 03, 2019, 02:54:12 AM
Hi.
The Comparison is inaccurate to push their app in front :

Reusability :

PM has Templates.

Types :
Custom types can be accessed

Variables :
Object Variables can be used
Scene Variables (Global Variables?)
Saved Variables (playerprefs although this is very limited)
Data Binding (get/set properties)

Performance
Lambda Optimization : Playmaker does not need this as it uses dedicated actions which are faster than mirroring (except for Get/Set Properties actions)
JIT Compilation : Same as above

Debugging
Data Visualization : debug mode shows data inside the actions and you can also set variables visible in inspector.
Predictive Analysis : Required fields show red when not used, also when components are not found you get a warning.

Especially the performance part is so deceiving...

In 2.0 they are working on a solution tho, which generates scripts.
Which is actually interesting, as maybe its possible to have something similar in PlayMaker to create custom actions (if generating works with 3rd party assets)
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: Broken Stylus on September 03, 2019, 03:42:23 AM
https://forum.unity.com/threads/unity-visual-scripting-2017.462181/
Check the 2017 video
Beegees Space Pirate says:

Quote
"There are a lot of different visual scripting solutions out there, but none of them really work well all the way from prototyping, maintaining, debugging and deploying high performance shipping-quality visual scripts."

I know this was a statement made in 2017 but back then PM already provided a good option for prototyping.
Maintaining is highly dependent on Unity's own set of tools regarding team collaboration. PM's internal issues regarding the management of Global variables could be held against PM though, but it's not that hard to maintain a PM project. In fact with something like FSM log, PM provides a native tool to follow the evolution of a script. FSM timeline is a nice tool although I think it could need an extra option to filter FSMs that talk to each other (it would need to parse the get/set actions, send event to X, goto y state in z FSM, etc.), maybe even presented under the form of some horizontal branching tree too. So that would be a little overhaul of the Timeline tool.
Debugging is rather transparent and quite easy to do, for the same reasons explained above. Several autohelpers are present too. When PM is fully deployed there is just no way you cannot find the little nagging bug that's creating a problem.
As for shipping-quality content, ready for deployment, it boils down to what you understand by that. Is it a 100% made in VS app (game or not btw), or is it something that integrates VS to some extent? Obviously a large "made with [name of VS tool]" catalogue would help bring confidence into the possibilities of VS based development, but a lot of this relies on PR and heavy communication, from web site to video content, fairs, webinars, etc.

Also, regarding Unity, they did announce a big move into VS back in 2017 and then postponed it. We're in 2019 and they sort of seem to imply a renewal of the interest in VS but are again pushing it to a later date.

Finally, to see what was being said on the other side of the river, a reply (https://ludiq.io/blog/unity-vs) about this VS tool Unity is working from Bolt's main coder.

I'm wondering what kind of beast Unity will become, they are literally working on two engines right now, the classic one that's in the DNA of the tool since its inception, and the new ECS based one that's friendly towards multithreading, which would usually concern large budged indsutry games or software, to manage countless entities at once. They want to get out of the indie zone.
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: Broken Stylus on September 03, 2019, 04:00:33 AM
It's also possible that node-based VS is a fad for gullible morons.  ;D
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: jeanfabre on September 17, 2019, 02:00:35 AM
Hi,

 c# is not going anywhere anytime soon :) ECS is not for the mere mortals amongst us, it's a beast, it's completly out of any visual elements to help you, so only hardcode devs and studios with big budgets and AAA goals will afford ECS for their projects. Unity might in the coming years leverage the editor interface with ECS.

Bolt is in trouble, despite their amazing look and UI, because it basically doesn't perform as expected since everything is using reflections, they work on Bolt 2 which will create scripts, but their take is basically a visual c# editor which completely misses the point of visual scripting for artists and unity dev who don't know c#. So I don't see that as going anywhere in terms of concurrent as to what PlayMaker offers.

Visual scripting solution that generates scripts will always struggle with workflow because it takes extra compilation time to hit play, that's annoying and break the flow of development, even now I tend to just do things in PlayMaker just to avoid the compilation of a small change in a script. You get used to this and forget all the amazing things playmaker brings on the table, other then the visual aspect of it. Burst compiler may help, but only time will tell, right now, it's a big nop...

 It boils down to this:There is no perfect solution, but there is a sweet spot for everything and Alex nailed it, almost 10 years ago now!!! with its hybrid approach of visual fsm and c# custom actions. It's the best possible combination for NO performance penalty and visual scripting. But it means extensive support to provide custom actions, proxies for third parties etc, that's the downside and a real problematic one, which is why I think Unity can't provide its solution, because it knows about this above dilemma ( perfs vs man power ), they can't settle for any of the two. The only thing I could see happening is a custom action wizard, on steroids, that artists could use to maximize the reach for third parties without coding. But when I work on Cinemachine api, I understand this is isn't going to work across the board... some api are too complex for wizards.

Then, it's of course a matter of preferences, and it's great that so many publishers make their own visual scripting system, it's very positive and make things move forward.

Bye,

 Jean
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: Broken Stylus on September 17, 2019, 08:11:00 AM
The only thing I could see happening is a custom action wizard, on steroids, that artists could use to maximize the reach for third parties without coding.

What do you have in mind? Is this for Unity or Playmaker?
Since creating new actions is a roadblock for non-coders, do you think Playmaker might provide a solution to this in the future?
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: krmko on September 17, 2019, 12:13:05 PM
I don't think custom action wizard will ever happen, though making actions is quite an easy feat, it's actually complex to make it automatized.

When you already have a script that does something and you have full access to it, making actions is dead simple with only basic coding knowledge.
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: Broken Stylus on September 18, 2019, 03:29:25 AM
Yes, overall making new actions is limited by the difficulty of the abstract nature of coding itself. At basic levels it is quite straight forward.

When I'll have time I'll give Bolt a look and will see if it is possible to make Bolt (or any other similar tool, perhaps uScript if they're still kicking) recognize the elements that are specific to the Playmaker syntax found in Playmaker actions and have these elements transformed into nodes. Therefore turning Bolt into a custom action tool.
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: jeanfabre on September 20, 2019, 02:15:37 AM
Hi,

 actually, It is something I am very interested in doing nonetheless, to speed up my process of creating custom actions.

 right now, there is a bottleneck still because no matter what it takes time to create actions, if I could simply with simple clicks setup the typical public fields, will all the usual decoration and perks ( cached component, typical everyframe setup, events, and usual routines we find as standard), I would greatly speed up the process.

Bye,

 Jean
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: djaydino on September 20, 2019, 07:54:16 AM
Hi.
I actually use a midi controller (launchpad) with an app (that i build with playmaker) that can place text, do mouse clicks etc ( a bit like programmable G-keys on Logitech gaming keyboards)
It took a little bit of time to setup, but now it saved me a lot of time :)
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: sarah22 on October 29, 2019, 11:55:03 AM
So would it be easy to upgrade our project to version 2 or do we have to recreate all the fsm?
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: jeanfabre on October 29, 2019, 11:37:12 PM
Hi,
 
I am not too sure about that, but I would think that they would be likely incompatible. We'll see.

Bye,

 Jean
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: lukew on November 06, 2019, 08:23:32 AM
Hi,
 
I am not too sure about that, but I would think that they would be likely incompatible. We'll see.

Bye,

 Jean

@jeanfabre
@Alex Chouls

Hi,

There was a question about that on Unity forums in January.

https://forum.unity.com/threads/playmaker-visual-scripting-for-unity.72349/page-60#post-4108702

Quote
I am a big fan of playmaker and I have my projects working very well. My question is when Playmaker 2 comes out, is it retrocompatible with the 1? Or is it just for new projects? Will the 1 continue to be updated?

And here is the reply from Alex

Quote
Hi! PlayMaker 2 will be compatible with PM1, you should be able to keep working on your existing projects with it. PM1 will continue to be updated with bug fixes and compatibility fixes for new versions of Unity.

Can you please let us know if this is true or maybe plans have changed since then?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Playmaker 2.0
Post by: jeanfabre on November 07, 2019, 11:32:41 PM
Hi,

 I think Alex is doing his best to provided backward compatibility.

From what I know, there is right now a lot of work put on the Editor itself, while the runtime remains the same pretty much, so it seems it's heading that way where v2 may be compatible with v1.

But this is very early to turn this into a statement.

Bye,

 Jean